State Tournament Criteria
- By jherrin
- New Mexico High School Basketball - Boys
- 105 Replies
Here we go. I would like to make a few statements prior to putting my thoughts here.
1. I do not believe I have the answers to everyone's individual situations 1-5A and Girls/Boys. Border School/Metro School. This is a discussion for me to get feedback so I can learn more about our state. Constructive criticism is welcome.
2. If you are someone who "doesn't care" what the criteria is.. Meaning, You don't care if we go back to District Winner and District Runner up representing state or you are a "lets just see who wins in March guy" "the best teams always rise up" than this thread isn't for you. I am trying to look forward at making our amazing state tournament, even more amazing. You can keep your feelings from 30 years ago, to yourself.
I will be posting a simplified version of the criteria that I have sent around to several head coaches around the state at different levels and girls/boys and received a mostly positive response. I will also be doing my own bracketology based on my criteria. If it all seems to make sense I will petition the NMAA at a few board meetings so I can to force them to at least look at making a change. I will address the concerns several coaches have and then my solutions.
Concerns
1. District competition in the state of New Mexico has not been balanced the last few years. Now, understandably, there is nothing that can be done about talent BUT overemphasis on district play and wins vs small school District champs creates an unfair advantage for those districts that haven’t truly earned a spot in the state tournament.
2. Comparing districts with 4 teams and 6 teams isn’t applicable because a 4th place team from a 4-team district can have 0 wins but a 4th place team from a 6-team district could have four or five wins. That isn’t a fair comparison. It doesn’t prove that those teams should be “equal” within the data. Therefore, the data collected is a statistical fallacy. If you need proof take a look at the the current 3rd place in District 6-4A vs the 3rd place in District 3-4A and tell me those teams are a wash.
3. Wins vs Any District Champion allows for soft scheduling for those coaches that have input in their schedule. A win for Lovington vs. a 5A champion (i.e. Hobbs) is accounted for the same amount of criteria points as a win vs 1A champion (i.e. Dora). With no disrespect to 1A or any small school basketball (Like PECOS!) it is largely inequitable data when comparing teams.
4. Coaches poll doesn’t receive full participation from Head Coaches therefore not all districts are represented equally. No equality equals bad data. Think about coaches that are already out of the tournament not voting for their district champ to get a high seed- that is wrong. Also, coaches input is purely based on opinion and many coaches aren’t following any data (just who their friends are or reputation)- so opinion makes the data irrelevant. If those polls are being tossed out because the opinion of that coach lacks evidence, then, yet another reason the data is irrelevant.
If the data we collect is relevant and simple then coaches shouldn’t need input because the “data” will have the best teams playing in the top-16.
5. You cannot be seeded higher than someone you finished lower than in district play. Why not? A wild card process allows for looking at the body of work of an entire season. You could go undefeated pre-district and lose one district game and that team has to be seeded higher than you? That is not common sense. It overemphasizes district play, which means there would need to be balanced districts for that criteria to be equitable. Look at St. Pius boys last year. Three wins vs District Champs, #13 Max preps, 15 overall wins but couldn't be seeded higher than Belen who was the #15 seed. Then, Miyamura wins the District tournament so Pius was eliminated from the tournament. Also this rule creates problems in the district tournament. Where beating the #1 team in the district tournament could drop their overall seed (max preps rating/win %) which would then drop your seed because you have to be seeded behind them. That is non sensical. A win shouldn't hurt you.
My solutions:
1. Max Preps rating- stays the same (Second Tie Break)
2. H2H- Stays the same (First Tie Break)
3. Win %- Stays the same
4. Wins vs District Champ- Out of state teams still count
a. 5A win=5 points, 4A win= 4 points 3A win= 3 points, 2A win= 2points, 1A win= 1 point
5. District Finish- Only matters when comparing teams in the SAME district- no cross- district comparison. You can be seeded higher than someone you finish behind in district. You can earn a criteria point for finishing higher than someone in your district but it doesn’t mean you get a higher seed in state.
a. Example 1:
i. Goddard finishes 1st place in district and Lovington finishes 2nd place. You compare those teams the following way
1. Goddard owns the H2H and Dist. Finish
2. Lovington owns the Win%, Max Preps, Wins vs DC
ii. Given this scenario- the body of work for Lovington is better- they could be seeded higher in State even though they finished behind Goddard. Goddard still gets credit for District finish.
b. Example 2:
i. Goddard finishes 1st and Lovington finishes 2nd
1. Goddard owns District Finish, Max Preps
2. Lovington owns Win %, H2H.
3. Wins vs. DC is a wash
ii. In this scenario, those schools tied on criteria, H2H is for Lovington in the tiebreak. But district finish did come in to play because Goddard finished higher so they were granted the point.
c. Example 3:
i. Goddard finishes 3rd in district (1-5) Overall (13-10) 56%
ii. Del Norte finishes 5th in district (2-8) (10-13) 43%
1. Goddard owns win %, wins vs DC
2. DN owns Max Preps, H2H
iii. The current criteria has Goddard in over DN because of district finish but Goddard won less games in district (so when we overemphasize district play in cross district criteria it doesn’t make sense)
iv. With this simplified criteria- Del Norte would own the spot over Goddard because of a H2H win and an overall higher rating (possibly tougher schedule) than Goddard.
6. District tournament would still be relevant because of Win %, H2H, and auto bid for winning the tournament. But no one would be hurt by the best team losing in the tournament.
I will be updating this thread with my 3A, 4A and 5A brackets. I will try and get to 1A and 2A if I can. I want to see how different (if at all) the seeding is.
I love talking hoops. I love that you guys keep this site alive by talking about great efforts by teams and individual player performances- it really makes the season fun.
1. I do not believe I have the answers to everyone's individual situations 1-5A and Girls/Boys. Border School/Metro School. This is a discussion for me to get feedback so I can learn more about our state. Constructive criticism is welcome.
2. If you are someone who "doesn't care" what the criteria is.. Meaning, You don't care if we go back to District Winner and District Runner up representing state or you are a "lets just see who wins in March guy" "the best teams always rise up" than this thread isn't for you. I am trying to look forward at making our amazing state tournament, even more amazing. You can keep your feelings from 30 years ago, to yourself.
I will be posting a simplified version of the criteria that I have sent around to several head coaches around the state at different levels and girls/boys and received a mostly positive response. I will also be doing my own bracketology based on my criteria. If it all seems to make sense I will petition the NMAA at a few board meetings so I can to force them to at least look at making a change. I will address the concerns several coaches have and then my solutions.
Concerns
1. District competition in the state of New Mexico has not been balanced the last few years. Now, understandably, there is nothing that can be done about talent BUT overemphasis on district play and wins vs small school District champs creates an unfair advantage for those districts that haven’t truly earned a spot in the state tournament.
2. Comparing districts with 4 teams and 6 teams isn’t applicable because a 4th place team from a 4-team district can have 0 wins but a 4th place team from a 6-team district could have four or five wins. That isn’t a fair comparison. It doesn’t prove that those teams should be “equal” within the data. Therefore, the data collected is a statistical fallacy. If you need proof take a look at the the current 3rd place in District 6-4A vs the 3rd place in District 3-4A and tell me those teams are a wash.
3. Wins vs Any District Champion allows for soft scheduling for those coaches that have input in their schedule. A win for Lovington vs. a 5A champion (i.e. Hobbs) is accounted for the same amount of criteria points as a win vs 1A champion (i.e. Dora). With no disrespect to 1A or any small school basketball (Like PECOS!) it is largely inequitable data when comparing teams.
4. Coaches poll doesn’t receive full participation from Head Coaches therefore not all districts are represented equally. No equality equals bad data. Think about coaches that are already out of the tournament not voting for their district champ to get a high seed- that is wrong. Also, coaches input is purely based on opinion and many coaches aren’t following any data (just who their friends are or reputation)- so opinion makes the data irrelevant. If those polls are being tossed out because the opinion of that coach lacks evidence, then, yet another reason the data is irrelevant.
If the data we collect is relevant and simple then coaches shouldn’t need input because the “data” will have the best teams playing in the top-16.
5. You cannot be seeded higher than someone you finished lower than in district play. Why not? A wild card process allows for looking at the body of work of an entire season. You could go undefeated pre-district and lose one district game and that team has to be seeded higher than you? That is not common sense. It overemphasizes district play, which means there would need to be balanced districts for that criteria to be equitable. Look at St. Pius boys last year. Three wins vs District Champs, #13 Max preps, 15 overall wins but couldn't be seeded higher than Belen who was the #15 seed. Then, Miyamura wins the District tournament so Pius was eliminated from the tournament. Also this rule creates problems in the district tournament. Where beating the #1 team in the district tournament could drop their overall seed (max preps rating/win %) which would then drop your seed because you have to be seeded behind them. That is non sensical. A win shouldn't hurt you.
My solutions:
1. Max Preps rating- stays the same (Second Tie Break)
2. H2H- Stays the same (First Tie Break)
3. Win %- Stays the same
4. Wins vs District Champ- Out of state teams still count
a. 5A win=5 points, 4A win= 4 points 3A win= 3 points, 2A win= 2points, 1A win= 1 point
5. District Finish- Only matters when comparing teams in the SAME district- no cross- district comparison. You can be seeded higher than someone you finish behind in district. You can earn a criteria point for finishing higher than someone in your district but it doesn’t mean you get a higher seed in state.
a. Example 1:
i. Goddard finishes 1st place in district and Lovington finishes 2nd place. You compare those teams the following way
1. Goddard owns the H2H and Dist. Finish
2. Lovington owns the Win%, Max Preps, Wins vs DC
ii. Given this scenario- the body of work for Lovington is better- they could be seeded higher in State even though they finished behind Goddard. Goddard still gets credit for District finish.
b. Example 2:
i. Goddard finishes 1st and Lovington finishes 2nd
1. Goddard owns District Finish, Max Preps
2. Lovington owns Win %, H2H.
3. Wins vs. DC is a wash
ii. In this scenario, those schools tied on criteria, H2H is for Lovington in the tiebreak. But district finish did come in to play because Goddard finished higher so they were granted the point.
c. Example 3:
i. Goddard finishes 3rd in district (1-5) Overall (13-10) 56%
ii. Del Norte finishes 5th in district (2-8) (10-13) 43%
1. Goddard owns win %, wins vs DC
2. DN owns Max Preps, H2H
iii. The current criteria has Goddard in over DN because of district finish but Goddard won less games in district (so when we overemphasize district play in cross district criteria it doesn’t make sense)
iv. With this simplified criteria- Del Norte would own the spot over Goddard because of a H2H win and an overall higher rating (possibly tougher schedule) than Goddard.
6. District tournament would still be relevant because of Win %, H2H, and auto bid for winning the tournament. But no one would be hurt by the best team losing in the tournament.
I will be updating this thread with my 3A, 4A and 5A brackets. I will try and get to 1A and 2A if I can. I want to see how different (if at all) the seeding is.
I love talking hoops. I love that you guys keep this site alive by talking about great efforts by teams and individual player performances- it really makes the season fun.